How to build a case for civil/criminal prosecution
A New Day for Litigation in Mind Control/Ritual Abuse Child Abuse Cases: How to build a case for civil/criminal prosecution – Jeanette Westbrook’s ’03 Conference Presentation
This transcript is from a presentation by Jeanette Westbrook at The Sixth Annual Ritual Abuse, Secretive Organizations and Mind Control Conference, August 8 – 10, 2003 at the DoubleTree Hotel in Windsor Locks, CT. Some of the topics discussed may be heavy for survivors. Survivors may want to read this with a support person or therapist. The conference is educational and not intended as therapy or treatment. All accusations are alleged. Our providing the information below does not necessarily constitute our endorsement of it.
This page has been put on the web by S.M.A.R.T., P O Box 1295, Easthampton, MA 01027 E-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org
Please note that the parts of this tape that were unintelligible to the transcriber have “???” in these parts. A few minor changes were made to the transcription for legal reasons.
Jeanette Westbrook will be speaking today from 1-2 o’clock.
This is the Sixth Annual Ritual Abuse, Secretive Organizations and Mind Control Conference in Connecticut, August 2003. Some of the topics discussed will be triggering. The conference is educational, not intended as therapy or treatment. Photographs may not be taken without the written permission of S.M.A.R.T. Audiotapes of all speakers will be available. Please remember this presentation is being recorded. Anything you say is being recorded. Thank you for coming to Jeanette’s presentation.
Jeanette Westbrook, MSSW, CSW, will present information, documentation on criminal and civil litigation in RA/MC cases using her own prosecution of one of her perpetrators of ritual abuse and mind control abuse. She is a nationally known speaker and lecturer at universities and is a Licensed Social Worker in practice full-time. She will educate and entertain her audience with her wit and wisdom. Her topic is: A New Day for Litigation in Mind Control/Ritual Abuse Child Abuse Cases: How to build a case for civil/criminal prosecution.
And now I’d like to introduce Jeanette.
Thank you very much, Neil, and thanks to all of you for being here and for your bravery and courage for coming to this conference. It’s not an easy thing to do.
Today I am going to be speaking about litigating, and getting at, maybe, a small piece of the pie of justice.
I’d like to start out with, ah, folks have always tried to silence the victims of RAT. (I’m going to start using that: Ritual Abuse/Torture).
Jean [ ??? ], Austrian philosopher tortured by the Gestapo, attests that victims are hesitant to recount what has happened to them because belief in humanity has been crushed. He states: “Anyone who has been tortured, remains tortured. Anyone who has suffered torture never again will be able to be at ease in the world. The abomination of the alienation is never extinguished. Faith in humanity, already cracked by the first slap in the face, then demolished by torture, is never acquired again.” It is this belief among the victims that no one will believe them that often keeps the silence of the truth. As one survivor came to believe what his SS guard had told him. The reality of his statement did indeed come to pass as after the War, and still today, there are those who refuse to believe the enormity or the truth of the experiences of those who have survived.
Next is his statement from his SS guard, quote: “However this War may end, we have won the war against you. None of you will be left to hear, to bear witness. But even if someone were to survive, perhaps suspicions, discussions, research by historians. But there will be no certainties, because we will destroy the evidence, together–with you–and even if some of you should remain and some of you survive, people will say that the events you describe are too monstrous to be believed. They will say that they are the exaggerations of Allied propaganda and they will believe us who will deny everything, and not you. We will be the ones to dictate the history of the [ ??? ]”
I say to you–bullshit! [Audience cheering and clapping]
That same old hushing message is still being repeated to survivors all over
the world in various manners. So whether it’s the Gestapo, whether it’s
through the community mental health systems that seek to label survivors of
RAT as delusional, etc, etc, not to be believed. It’s the same old crime and
I shall say to you, ‘We shall overcome!’ It won’t be some day, it will be
today. Starting today, each of you make your own promise to yourself–and
since we’re talking about litigation–I would like each of you to make your
own report to whatever legal, criminal agency is in your area. Reports equal
numbers, numbers equal somebody’s budget. Numbers equal the ability of
legislators to bring that to legislatures all over this country. And it
gives tools–for change.
Now, I’m sad to say, that a lot of us survivors are numbered. When it comes
to that kind of thing, that’s what they would like to reduce us to–is a
number. We’re not numbers, and we’re not research studies, or deviates.
Quickly, I’m just going to go over some of the definitions I’ve used. From
here on out, will be Ritual Abuse/Torture (RAT) added to this.
I think we’re familiar with Ritual Abuse, Psychotic Abuse, Dissociation.
Multiple Personality Disorder. I don’t believe that. I call it “Multiple
Personality Defense Systems.” This is a defense, folks.
I do not accept the term DID. I think they ‘did’ it to us again using the
When you’re talking about litigation in these cases, and this is 1990, and
by this time I had already started bringing felony criminal charges against
my father. And he was just one of many perpetrators. Because he has the
closest relationship to me and, in my opinion, the most damage because he
was my biological father, I made him the number one focus.
But some of the attitudes that we have that predominate through our entire
socio-political system are reflected in this statement by Louisiana State
Representative Carl [ ??? ] offering a defense of incest during a recent
debate on Louisiana’s abortion bill. Quote: “When I got to thinking the way
we could get thoroughbred horses and thoroughbred dogs is through
inbreeding, maybe we could get a super-sharp kid.” Well, guess what, he was
defeated in the next election.
[Audience laughing, clapping]
Shit happens, you know. [more laughter]
Now, this is going to bring me to this thing here, the criminal justice
crap shoot. Because that, my folks, is exactly what it is.
Popular TV shows, Law and Order, it’s ‘law and disorder’. It’s, um, it’s
Detectives that work on these cases–if you can find one to even do it–are
so overwhelmed and underfunded and undermanned, that it truly is a miracle
that anybody can get through these systems.
Now, the only reason that I dared go through this criminal justice
crap shoot, is I had some training by an FBI agent, another survivor in
Colorado, that gave me some pointers on how to go about doing this.
One of the first things that you got to do is, remember, that YOU are going
to investigate your own case. Start looking at yourself as your own
detective. You will be in charge of gathering ALL of the evidence.
Now, there’s some pros and cons to doing this.
Obviously, here are just a few reasons why I think that many of the adult
victims are suing and prosecuting, that is–those that can prosecute. And
I’ll explain that a little bit later.
Some survivors want to:
– Publicly confront the abuse
– Force the perpetrator into a treatment
– Stop the perpetrator from abusing other children
– Financial restitution to pay for therapy and medical bills
– Financial restitution for damages, lost wages, etc.
– Raise public awareness about the abuse
– They want to change the laws governing statutes of limitations. And
because these statutes are currently being changed in many states, I think
that has given a lot of survivors into thinking along those lines.
– Victims receiving treatment, then they’re further along in their
recovery, they’re more supported. As we are able to get more therapists and
others that have a knowledge base in this, you see a lot more healing taking
place and empowerment of survivors taking place, regardless of what the
False Memory Syndrome people may attempt.
– Formation of advocacy organizations. But I will say this, that I think
there are less advocacy organizations today than there were even 5 years
– Some attorneys, many attorneys, are now women, judges–women; and
– Growing awareness of abuse and its consequences.
I will say this to you all right now, because of the nationwide issue
regarding litigation within the Catholic Church and many other
denominations–I might add the hundreds, the thousands of cases–many from
Louisville, Kentucky. We’ve had the largest number of cases in the United
States. They just settled, I think, for 26 million dollars.
But that is not without consequence to those that have told. Now we have
organizations saying, ‘Gee whiz, we have to cut all these social programs.
We have to, like–you know, lay people off because of all these lawsuits.
And we just don’t have the money.’
My favorite words–bullshit. They have lots of money, lots of assets. But
it’s another way of saying, ‘how dare you tell.’
Now, when you’re looking at building a case, victims need to remember this:
you are nothing but a witness for the state. That’s a hard one to swallow.
You’re a witness for the state. They don’t even look at you as the crime
victim. It is the district attorney that is going to bring the charges on
behalf of the state against your perpetrator. And you are a witness for the
Now: who, what, when, where, and why. This is what law enforcement in
investigative capacity wants to know. Who did it, what did they do, when did
they do it, where did they do it, and last of all, they want to know why.
Victims, I find, come with “why?” first, okay? But they don’t want to know
that first. They want to know all these other things first.
And when they mean WHO? They want the first name and last name, the date of
birth and if possible, the social security number.
WHAT? They want to know–what they mean by “what happened to you?”–they
want to know under what statute, in which state, it happened. What is it
that happened? Was it first felony degree rape? Felony degree assault?
“Officer, it was psychotic ritual abuse.” Yeah, there’s no statute.
In my state there’s no statute of ritual abuse but there is one for first
degree felony rape, there is one for incest, there is one for assault.
WHERE? Better have that address where it happened.
And WHEN? Was that 9a.m. or 9p.m.? Was it 3 o’clock in the morning? What
month of the year was it? Now, don’t be discouraged by that. If you can get
some parameters of seasonal, that’s good. If you can get down to the year,
that’s good. What I’m saying is try to narrow that as much as you can.
And then, WHY? Make your ‘why’ very simple. “There’s a sadistic pedophile.”
The rest of the stuff’s going to come out. But start with something that
they can understand. Detectives, law enforcement, judges, attorneys don’t
have a clue about a lot of this. Their eyes glaze over like a lot of
peoples’ do when you bring up mind control, ritual abuse, torture.
This is a list of some of the things that you should be gathering for your
– medical records
– school records
– church or religious records
– criminal records
– psychiatric records
– marriage records
– divorce records
It’s very important that you know what the defense attorney for the
perpetrator is going to know, because they’re looking for the same
information. They WILL get access to your psychiatric records. They will,
for sure, run a criminal background check on you.
Some of the things that helped me, interestingly, were school records that
established a time line when things were happening.
School records, like psychiatric tests. I had one done in the second grade.
I failed the first grade. But they couldn’t figure out what the hell was
wrong with me. My IQ was less than 80 points. And so, these are some of the
Collaborative information. Asking other relatives, asking your childhood
friends, teachers, coaches. Ah, posting blind ads. The more survivors and
victims you have of a particular perpetrator, the greater your case.
Strength in numbers, okay?
Letters. Any letters that you have from that time. Photographs, and objects
used in the abuse/torture.
A blind ad. You might use a secondary paper which I think might be a little
bit better, placing a blind ad to a P.O. Box. You might say, “Does anyone
remember being tortured or sexually abused by … ” And I would not use the
perp’s name, but a description that would be understandable for another
victim to perhaps reply to this. Then you have to go through the process of
screening those letters that come in. But that’s another way to gain
possible information about their victims.
[Question from the audience]
Excuse me, would you name an organization’s location, or private club
Oh yeah, oh yeah. If you were allegedly abused at the local Masonic lodge, by all
means give the address. [Audience laughter]
[Question from the audience]
[inaudible…] access to medical records [inaudible] the defense be allowed
under the new HIPAA law?
Absolutely. Law enforcement always has access to everything, everything.
Even under HIPAA, law enforcement has access, also insurance companies.
Every time you bill under your private insurance company for psychiatric
services, that is not covered under HIPAA. Read the laws on HIPAA. That’s
the loophole, okay? Secondary pay sources don’t have to abide by that
because they have to share that information.
I’m sorry, I have to ask you to hold questions, ah, because I’m really
running behind here.
Okay, I’m just going to go ahead and run through these real quick.
This is the local DA who finally requested to release my case to the
Kentucky Attorney General’s office where they appointed a special prosecutor
to extradite my father from Columbus, Ohio back to Louisville, Kentucky to
face felony rape charges. In Kentucky, the statute that bore the highest
level of push for adjudication would be rape, first degree rape. Ah, sure,
we could have filed under incest, but that doesn’t carry as much penalty. In
Kentucky, the average sentence for incest is 5 years less than one year
And by the way, Kentucky is one of only seven states in the United States
that has no statute of limitations on felony crime. That means, if something
happened twenty years ago and it was a felony, and information or a case is
brought before the DA 20 years later, it can be prosecuted.
In my opinion, the statute of limitations on certain felony crimes, such as
murder–which is acceptable in any state–I believe that sexual assault of
minors should have no statutes of limitations, in any of the states of
America. [Audience clapping]
Now this is from the county attorney’s office, recognizing me as a victim of
sexual assault, domestic violence.
My father’s attorney [I can read upside down, but you can’t!] [Audience
[Jeanette flips slide over and points to list of names on letterhead]
It’s very important that you look at things like over here, “Of Counsel.”
Research and look at EVERYBODY that’s associated with your case. Not only
the attorney who’s representing the perpetrator but who’s on board with him.
That’s very important that you look at all that information, okay?
[Question from the audience]
Can you read that?
Oh, okay. “Dear Ms. Westbrook, I represent your father on a warrant taken
out by you on October 21, 1991. The case is scheduled for November 21, 1991
at 1p.m., Courtroom #2. I hope you can come to court that day and maybe we
can resolve this matter.” [Audience laughter]
Now, before we got to that point, I decided after support groups, therapy,
all kinds of things–and after being trained by an FBI agent, another
victim–that I was going to do this.
Remember, everything that is known about you or unknown about you–your
secrets–will all be there in the courtroom waiting for you. It’s very
important that you understand that. You will have no privacy from here on
Anything that is said in an investigative capacity or in a courtroom is
fodder for the media to publish about you. If you think you can do this and
retain your anonymity, you cannot.
So you have to be very, very sure within yourself, why you want to do this
and what are you willing to risk. Are you willing to risk your privacy? Are
you willing to risk the privacy of your family? Are you willing to take the
financial cost of doing this? What Linda was talking about earlier about the
financial cost mounting up just to defend yourself.
And I have to tell you, this is another really important thing. When you go
through the criminal justice system they’re going to tell you that you don’t
need an attorney, you’ve got a prosecutor representing you. Well, always
remember, the prosecutor represents the state, not you. HIRE YOUR OWN
ATTORNEY to represent you, to watchdog the system, and how it handles your
case. You need your own advocate. I mean–and in this society–that advocate
is an attorney.
You must be prepared to hire an attorney to represent you, to watchdog your
case because there’s a lot of pressure on the whole criminal justice system
to NOT accept these cases. They cost a lot. These cases are some of the
highest, most expensive cases in the criminal justice system, because it
often involves calling in expert witnesses, subpoenaing therapists and
multiple family members and multiple witnesses.
Now, when I found my detective–I had to, ah–you investigate your
detective, what can I say. So here’s what I found out about him. He used to
be a CPS worker. Okay, that’s good, because I didn’t have to convince him
that child abuse exists. He’s worked those cases. So that was a positive on
his side. His wife was a social worker. Okay, that sounds good, too.
The third thing was that he used to run a beat right where I grew up! So he
was going to know the territory–and who all the weirdos were out there.
Okay, so those were the three things. That was the detective we went to see.
Now I had to talk to the detective and tell him what I knew. And then the
other parts went to the detective and told him what they knew, you know. And
of course there’s a lot of sabotage. Some alters, the sexual alters, come
right out, walking–as they reported to me–coming in to the detective’s
office, slinking up, laying across the desk. You know, doing whatever you
can to sabotage a case, okay?
A lot of detectives had said, ‘Man, we can’t go and work this case–this
lady’s nuts!’ Okay? But because of his background, it just gave him more
ammunition. So he just [ ??? ] from me and my alters. But DON’T give any of
your alters permission to do that. Be sure you’re in control [ ??? ] before
you do that. If they–because as far as I’m concerned–those alters going in
and talking to detectives is an attempt to sabotage the case.
Okay. So I went in and told him things and then, ah, they’d be drawing
pictures. I just want to say, photographs and pictures–pictures drawn by
victims–are forensic evidence. It’s admissible in a court of law, okay?
Drawings are very important.
And this is one of programming, this is a couple of [ ??? ] showing ritual
abuse. One of my alters named “Stupid”. Ah, “No one sees a lightning bolt
that kills them. Only thunder tells them that danger is near. Ha, ha, ha.
Very funny, Stupid.” This hostile interject that is that programming, ‘Don’t
tell, shut up.’
Now, this is the question that I think a lot of victims ask, ‘Why, why me?
Why, why why?’ We almost torture ourselves asking that question of ‘why.’
The person who knows ‘why’ is the perpetrator. And they very rarely will
ever give it up. Even after going through adjudication and being imprisoned,
they very rarely will say ‘why,’ because they want to hold on to that power
This is one that shows very vividly the third person perspective. “Tie her
down. I left here there. We went to another place. He laughed at me as he
raped her.” So the detective asked, “Well, you don’t remember exactly what
happened?” This is a good explanation about what’s happened as far as the
dissociative process goes.
Here you can see the kind of ritualized, Masonic-type of drawings I often
Ah, my father, thirty-third degree Mason, Grand Master Mason, State of
Kentucky, Jaytown Lodge. Ah, that’s not alleged, that’s fact. And he made
Master Mason in one year. He entered in 1965 and by 1965 was Master Mason,
at the same time as being in the Mormon priesthood. So that was the cover.
The Mormon religion was just one of his covers along with being a Boy Scout
leader at the time. Being a Mormon deacon, priesthood, all that stuff, that
was just cover to procure victims.
So, at the age of 13 I left the Mormon church. Then I became a ‘modern’
girl–“I’m bad”–after that. And I started literally running the streets.
And meanwhile in all this, as you hear, in many of these organized cults and
other ‘rat packs’ is, ah, that we were supplying all the drugs for the high
school. You could go down to the basement and there were the big garbage
bags full of pot, LSD, everything. You had to get out there and ‘earn your
Some more drawings.
Torture. Implements used. Cat [ ??? ] tails. Police are interested in things
like this. This shows what was done and with what was it done.
This is another one they were really interested in. “Inside is a little
girl. She is being raped. It hurt very bad. Ropes hung from rafters.”
See this drawing of the garage? I explained to them it was a garage. You
think they would go out there and take a look at that garage, make sure it
had one window up here and three across and was only a one-door garage? You
That’s the kind of stuff they’re going to look at. That’s the kind of stuff
they are going to want to see.
Stupid again with a message, “Shut up!”
This is the kind of stuff, letters…
“Father, there is a serious matter that needs to be addressed.” [I don’t
spell that bad but some of them did!] “Because of the emotional, physical
and sexual abuse that you have inflicted upon me throughout my childhood, I
have needed intensive psychotherapy once again in order to help me overcome
the lasting effects of this treatment by you. Even though to undo the damage
that was done to me, I would believe that you can, and it would be right for
you to provide some restitution by paying the bills I have already incurred
for ongoing persistent, ongoing therapy.” That’s all I wanted, some help
with therapy bills, right? “I would suggest that you seek psychotherapy with
a therapist who has expertise in working with someone who has engaged in
Do you think I ever got a response to that? [Audience laughter] Hell, no!
But the police would want to look at that, okay? They’re looking at that for
a reason. ‘Well, did you ever talk to him, did you ever confront him about
See, that was many years before I actually filed charges. See what I’m
saying? Those attempts are helpful.
Now, a lot of people talk about being harassed during the criminal justice
system. And for those therapists and supporters who seek to assist us
through this process…’Yeah, you know, they don’t try to do shit like
that’…But, ah, don’t believe it for a minute.
The more you tell, the fact that you have the courage to file charges, the
fact that you’re talking to the police, the fact that you are publicly
declaring what has happened to you is going to do a lot to back them down
because it gets too many eyes looking on them.
Now, here’s an example. [See if I can get this better.] This was on the
building at my husband and my first residence we had as husband and wife
in Louisville, Kentucky. This was a message left on the
building next to my home. There was a vacant lot, then a building, a portion
of this was commercial property.
“Life is short but love is long.” See that all-seeing eye here? The
‘JEM’–those are my initials. Ah, of course, the universal sign for
death–skull and bones. You know, crap like that.
When we moved after the litigation, the park down the street–we had huge
carvings in all the park benches, they actually had to be removed because
they couldn’t take the carvings out.
So, yeah, there’s going to be some threats, you know? But what are they
going to do, kill me? They already tried that and it didn’t work.
This is the obituary from my father, Donald J. MacDonald, and I’m
reading–quoting from the Louisville Courier-Journal and Times, June 30,
1992. The death, June 28, 1992, that was less than a month after pending
extradition from Columbus, Ohio back to the state of Kentucky to stand trial
on federal charges, ah, felony charges, rather. He had just come back from
speaking to Parliament in Yugoslavia and Hungary concerning their nuclear
programs, and they found him dead at home, signed off by a private physician
and there was no autopsy done. And there was a big huge effort to make sure
that I knew about his death, and I was threatened not to attend the funeral.
He was given a big Masonic send-off. I’ve got all the letters from who was
there and their signatures.
“Autopsy. D.J. MacDonald, 64, of Westerville, Ohio, formerly of Louisville,
died Sunday, Columbus, Ohio. He was the executive director of the National
Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors.” [Pressure vessels are
nuclear reactors. So he controlled all the inspectors of all the nuclear
power plants.] “He was a former First Chief Warrant Inspector for the State
of Kentucky, he was a Marine Veteran, a member of the American Society of
Mechanical Engineers, Grand Masonic Lodge of Kentucky, Scottish Rite,
American Association of Executives, American Society for Testing Materials”
[once again, nukes] “and American [ ??? ] Society. Survivors are his wife
Carolyn MacDonald” [that is his second wife…some unrelated stuff…]
“Bonnie Hawkins…”[my sister…myself] “Jeanette Westbrook…stepson…two
My oldest brother also entered into the nuclear industry. But he could not,
after working, he applied for a higher security clearance and they ran a
check on him. He didn’t pass.
This is one of the things, ah, the National Board put out that summer my
father…”In Memory of D.J. MacDonald.”
And one of these is “Remembering Mac”.
And one part of this says, “Least We Forget.” How could I? [Audience
And this is just so validating to see something like this written down.
After all of this, that’s validating.
“Representing the Executive Leadership of the National Board, D.J. MacDonald
[ ???] an image of impressive proportion. He met with world leaders, he
rubbed an elbow or two with the politically powerful. He occasioned with the
captains of industry. Elegantly attired, he slipped into whatever role he
was expected to play on the National Board…Outside of the office, however,
there was another D.J. MacDonald…” [Okay.] “He slipped neatly into
whatever role he was expected to play.” [And here we go.] “D.J. MacDonald
was loved by family, by National Board staff, by business associates, he
even had a legion of pint-sized admirers–the neighborhood kids. It was
common to see a bunch of them gathered in Mr. MacDonald’s yard. He always
found time for the children and he always inquired after their well-being.
Such was his concern and it was genuine.”
Bullshit. [Audience laughter]
But I just want to say, if I can take on a politically-connected,
world-traveling perpetrator involved in RAT–ritual
abuse/torture–involving organization, the Masonic organization, the Mormon,
the Boy Scout leader, with all of those trappings, it is possible.
Because of the statute of limitations you may not be able to get that chunk
of validating criminal justice validation. But each time you write down what
has happened to you, you go and speak out about what happened to you, that
you make reports…I mean, you know–the National Center for Missing and
Exploited Children. Any organization like that, it produces a number and has
the potential to give someone tools to do something. That’s very, very
But remember, anytime you make any kind of report to law enforcement, you
have now opened the door. In the criminal justice system, they will use your
psychiatric diagnosis against you, not for you. Even by it’s very nature,
MPD means you have been tortured, that’s what those letters mean. That will
be used against you. You will be called mentally ill, delusional, blah,
blah, blah. Don’t give up then.
But you must marshal all of your bets in a row: supportive associations,
advocacy groups. I called literally dozens all across the United States. My
support system was Parents United. My local chapter wrote letters on my
behalf. They urged and had multiple letters going to the DA. “Open this
case. Reopen this case. Prosecute this case. Prosecute this case.” You’ve
got to keep on top of them.
They do not want to touch these cases with a ten-foot pole. But if there is
a time to go forward, it is now, because the Archdiocese cases have opened
the collective consciousness across the United States to be
thinking…multiple perps and multiple victims, ritualized…’You know that
priest raped that child on an altar with a crucifix?’ That’s ritualized
It’s opening the psychic consciousness that something is happening and the
possibility that children, adults are being tortured.
I’d like to open the floor to some questions right now.
National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors. It’s not a union,
it’s an organization. It’s a quasi-governmental organization associated with
the Department of Defense and Department of Energy. Has a lot to do with the
Just in reference to the HIPAA, I mean, everybody thinks that has increased
our privacy [inaudible] records are wide open.
Correct. Don’t be fooled by HIPAA. Okay, the question from the audience for
the tape was about HIPAA laws, and about how HIPAA [ ??? ] because one of
those is the issue of National Security. So those records can be opened and
certainly when we’re in here talking about things like mind control, think
the government might consider that a national security issue?
Jeanette, I was wondering since your dad passed away before you were able to
complete the suit, did you come to any closure for yourself by what you did?
Ah, you know, yes. The question is, she asked, did I come to any closure
after going through this whole long criminal justice system and to have my
father die or be murdered or whatever, okay? Yes. Going through the criminal
justice system greatly empowered me.
So few people have done this, there are not very many cases in the United
States. I wish there were many, many more. That’s why I think it’s so
important that I go forward and be talking about this. I would not have been
able to do this if I hadn’t been encouraged and given information on how to
go about this by other survivors and law enforcement.
Another key to doing this, too, is be sure you investigate your cops, okay?
Believe it or not, there are some out there that are really excellent.
They’re called “cult cops.” They’re very rare, and they’re very–I’d say
underground–and that’s the kind of cop you want. Because I assure you, you
get a cop who’s right out there in front talking about this, he’s liable to
get himself killed, okay? So you want a cop who’s a little bit educated and
little bit paranoid, sort of like us. [Audience laughter] Yes?
How do you go about finding a cop?
Question is, how do you go about obtaining a cult cop or police officer that
is educated in investigating these types of cases. I would suggest that you
go through advocacy organizations, that you look up every case involving
litigation of this sort, you find out who their attorneys were, who their
personal attorneys were. You need to call these DAs. But you might get
disinformation, you might get good information. I think you’re going to get
pretty good information because it’s going to be documented. So once again,
you’re going to be doing a lot of research.
Ah, you know, you can’t go around with ‘It’s bigger than all of us and you
can’t do anything’ and be intimidated by this. They’re counting on your
silence. They’re counting on you being too frightened to tell who, what,
when, where and lastly why. They want to keep you silent.
Okay. Well, there are several states in the United States and the prototype
is in Illinois, yes. [Audience clapping] That ritual abuse law is excellent.
She worked on it. Jerry [ ??? ] who is a cult cop–let’s just say it, a
cult cop–he helped put together that kind of litigation. But like a lot of
statutes that come out of state legislatures, they can use them when they
want to, or they can not use them. So, back in the mid 90’s, when there were
several states passing ritual abuse statutes, it just suddenly stopped. And
that barrier right there was mounting resources and mounting litigation, an
attack from those friendly folks from Philadelphia. [Audience laughter] You
know who that must be.
Jeanette, your father died, was the case ever brought to trial? I didn’t
Okay. The question is, father died, did it ever go to trial? Here’s how it
The District Attorney, the local DA, they pass it through their internal
system from the county attorney to the district attorney. My detective goes
in and presents for the grand jury. He presented on my behalf, okay? So he
goes in and presents what’s happening in the case. Grand jury deliberations
in the state of Kentucky are secret. Most grand juries I know of–and
there’s a couple that are not–yeah, they’re secret. So, he goes in and
presents the case. And then literally, there’s a light that goes on, red for
stop and green for go, okay? The light [ ??? ] goes on. The grand jury [ ???
] Police officer, everybody goes haywire. My [???] they didn’t bother to
tell me or my personal attorney. So they’re trying to keep it hush-hush.
Finally, waiting, applying political pressure to the DA, the police
detectives, just going crazy on them. Literally just going—pushing,
pushing, pushing. Ah, it gets released by an order from the Attorney
General’s office. So the case goes out of the legal area of jurisdiction, a
special prosecutor appointed to the case. So the Attorney General orders an
extradition to bring him from Columbus, Ohio back to Louisville, Kentucky.
The case is only going to be prosecuted in the county or the jurisdiction in
which the crimes occurred. If you’re now living in Massachusetts and the
crime occurred in New Jersey, you can’t go through the New Jersey criminal
justice system. You have to go back to Massachusetts , the jurisdiction in
which it occurred, and file the charges there. You have to get an attorney that’s licensed in that state.
Just as an aside, the US Patriots Act…I went to the local library because
I didn’t want them to have access to what books I was reading. And so one of
the things I did was I put it in writing to the library. I do not want under
any circumstances what I read released to law enforcement and they took that
information and they said just because someone shows up with a
subpoena–because we don’t know if they’re true cops or not–they have to
have written information, a judge has to [inaudible] it has to be so
official at our library now they just won’t release it. So that’s another
thing you can do, is make sure that it’s in writing. Because anybody can
show up in uniform with a subpoena that’s not really true.
That’s absolutely correct. That once again, if you’re going to do anything
with law enforcement they’re going to know exactly what you’re doing and
when you’re doing it.
Because I can guarantee the perp is going to hire a PI–that’s a private
investigator. They’re going to be watching you on the toilet if they can get
inside to see. And bug, you know, whatever, and listen. [Audience laughter]
Well, you know, you gotta have that attitude, ‘Come on if you’re coming.
Bring it on.’ You’ve got to be prepared to have that kind of level of doing
it. Now I’m going to say there’s some other interesting things that made my
case what the criminal justice system in Kentucky has said legitimate, okay?
I had no criminal background because they’re going to do a criminal
background check on you. I guarantee it. I had nothing. I didn’t have any
speeding tickets, DUIs, or anything. Because I’ve got to be able to do my
job and I’m programming real well.
So, ah, they’re going to take a look at that, any of your medical records,
anything that they can find to get a wedge in to discredit you, they will
use. That’s not just us kind of survivors, that’s any defendant. Defense
attorneys are going to look for how they can discredit you, the victim, the
witness for the state.
I’m just wondering, what was the time line between when he was to be
extradited to Kentucky and when he died?
Ah, two months.
How much did it cost you?
The question is, how much did this cost me? [sigh] In monetary terms or
emotional terms? [Questioner] Both. [Jeanette] Okay. The question is, how
much did it cost?
Financially, I did such a good job at researching, I was represented by a
private attorney, pro bono. Okay? Even though she was not the DA and she
couldn’t tell the DA what to do, she was watch-dogging my case for me, okay?
That sends a message to the criminal justice system that you’ve got someone
‘covering your butt’…back here. Remember that old adage ‘you get what you
If you’ve been seeing a counselor, or you’ve gotten different kinds of
treatment, and you bring these people in with you or a letter from them, can
they still discredit that against you?
The question is, can they discredit counselors and therapists that have
assisted you? You betcha! You betcha they can, and they will try.
Just, you know, in this morning’s presentation. I mean, they’re going to try
all of those things that Linda and Kay talked about. They’re going to try,
on the victim, every single one. The same things that were used against
Linda they’re going to use against you. Make no mistake about that. Even
down to they’re going to know what kind of medications you’re taking because
they’re going to run a check on your pharmacy records, too.
The pictures that you showed us–your journaling or whatever–like at what
point were those done? What will the court accept? What if they were done
many years after the incident, would the court still recognize those?
Sure. They will recognize those as introduced forensic evidence. But if you
could get things that were done like in grade school? Artwork that you did in
grade school that reveals some of that, that’s much, much, much better.
Because once again, that shows the time line of when the incidents were
occurring and what was going on then.
I could just say this–that I think it’s worthwhile to do it, because if we
don’t, who will? Only the victim, only the crime victim can bring charges.
Not anyone else. Not any advocacy organization, not any therapist, not any
cop, not anybody but the victim. And my philosophy is, ‘they don’t stop til
Except if the victim is presently a child, at the present time. An adult can
bring charges on behalf of that child?
Yes, an adult can bring charges on behalf of a child. A lot of these victims
don’t have anybody to bring the charge for them. There’s no parent. And try
getting an overwhelmed guardian or anybody else to bring a charge on behalf
of the child, okay?
There just aren’t that many cases. I deal with them every single day in my
job. But there’s such well-documented cases of ritual abuse, torture of
children and literally nothing is happening or is going to be done. Because
a child’s rights in the United States of America come only through their
parent and/or guardian. And if those guardians are impaired, disempowered,
perpetrators–where does that leave the child? It leaves the child
vulnerable and it leaves the child without access to justice, to human
If a person has an IQ of genius, 160’s, and later on in life that decreases
because of the abuse, would that hold up in court?
Well, mine was less than 80 points in the second grade, you know.
No, this person was high–2nd or 3rd grade–160, genius. All of a sudden,
years later, he’s going down, down, down, down, down. Would that be of help
in a court of law?
That I don’t know. Only if he could prove the relationship between the
decrease and the traumatization or a specific crime causing that decrease.
You know, I can see a jury saying ‘Well, well they’re drinking and drugging
out there…and they’re getting older so there’s a decrease in IQ points.’
I mean, this case I’m talking about, say between 3-4 years of age through
18-20 years of age.
In my opinion, as a professional, if I was looking at a child like that, and
I saw that kind of point drop, I would immediately want to rule out any
medical issues. So I would want there to be a complete physical examination
and, you know, perhaps a neurologist to take a look at the child. Of course,
I might want to have binoculars to see what the neurologist was doing to the
poor kid. But I would be ordering a lot. Find out what’s the reason here, if
they have other symptomology, any kind of acting-out behaviors, sexualized
behaviors. Any of those indicators that point to trauma, I’m going to be
I’m sorry, I think this is it. But, I just want to say, you know, after
years of doing this, and I’ve been like seven years with Hal Pepinsky at
the Bloomington IU, it can take hours to do a good presentation like this. I
literally would need hours to really give you.
But I just wanted to give you a snapshot at what it is. And I would
encourage everybody, please make a report at the very minimum–IF YOU CAN.
If you’re under threat or in danger and you can’t because maybe of threats
to your children. But I would say, don’t believe their crap. You know,
they’re trying to intimidate you. They’re more afraid of you making a
report. That’s what they’re really afraid of. Do it, if you can. Let people
know what’s happening out here. It’s so very important.
Thank you very much.